Now, just to counterpoint what I've said, here is the Gung Ho photograph, the one that Rosenthal did pose, and it gives the marines who raised the flag plus the rest of the crew that actually scaled Mount Suribachi at that particular time. And it is triumphalist, in fact the argument is it never received the same prominence as Rosenthal's Flag Raising photograph because it is staged. It's clearly a case that the individuals are interacting with the camera, they've been asked to stand in that particular position, and to a certain degree, it's after the event. The flag is up. So just to put this in context, when Rosenthal was asked at the time, did you pose this? He was referring to this. And it clearly is a photograph that has, had a little bit of composition to it. And allows the individuals concerned to act in a non spontaneous manner. Now, I, I don't think there's anything wrong with this photograph. I think in the nature of the American Battle I can understand. Why the Marines would want to actually show a, degree of triumphalism. But it doesn't have the immediacy of the photograph that we're basing some of the issues around today. I mentioned, Bob Campbell. In terms of a photographer who was there for both of the flag raising, and this is an image of one going up, and one coming down. This again, the existence of this photographs starts to work into the authenticity of Rosenthal's iconic image. Because we have a second flag being raised is it a case that we are creating an image artificially. This is not get into the mount putting the photograph up claiming it as our territory. It's, we're replacing it with something else. It doesn't have, perhaps, emotionally, so much the immediacy. I don't think, that really carries through so much. I do think that the, the, the image that Rosenthal took is the more important of the two. Although I think it's also something that in a broader analysis you'd want to know that this process took place. You'd want to have the full background. And also to consider what the alternatives were when trying to assess the importance of images in this regard. Now I'm going to attempt to interpret this photograph. And you will find many people who have done the same. I am not putting a huge amount of weight on what I'm about to say. This is, an element of venturing into another nation's heritage so to speak. But I would like to at least give you some pointers as the way you might bring this together. Again, if you go through the, bonus material on the two disc version of Flags of Our Fathers you will see that Clint Eastwood just makes an aside. He says well, we don't really know why it's so powerful an image. He also makes the point that he was a very young man at the time of this, and just about remembers it coming out as a, as a photo when he was growing up, okay? First point I'd raise is, struggle under adversity. It's not an environment which appears to be quote natural to these men, it's reasonably a stark background. You have rubble and debris in the immediate foreground. So, therefore they are working against A, the physics of getting the flag up. But secondly, implicitly, what might be an action under fire, or looking at a military conflict where they are getting towards the end. So, an, a struggle under adversity. I think it's quite important. In terms of Jim Rosenthal's earlier comment. One of the things that you might want to, to think about, in this particular context is the fact, that these are anonymous heroes. You cannot see the face of any of the individuals involved. As I made the point earlier, in fact, you're only aware of one person through their hand, and their hand has just left the pole as it is going through to its final upright position. So, because it doesn't identify. Let me put this in this context. Because the photograph doesn't identify, the individuals. Doesn't have their faces there. This is symbolic of, all military services, of all efforts towards a goal. So the, the fact that Rosenthal took this photograph and didn't have, the, the faces of the soldiers there, or the marines there, is important. A point that he, acknowledged when asked about this image, okay? The other thing which I think is quite important, and I put it down as, anticipation of triumph about to be achieved. The flag, isn't up yet. Very obviously, but the point is, it's the anticipation, these men are putting their effort into actually achieving something which again, has a certain significance, raising the flag, so to speak. So, when I use the idea that it's work in progress, it is the fact that it's captured there, as opposed to in the vertical and the Gung Ho image. That is where I, I think that some of the importance of that image comes. And why it might have spoken to the American public in quite the way that it did. It is also an image about cooperation. Here you've got six men working together in concert. They don't have all the same roles, at the point you have the photograph taken some of them have actually ceased to be engaging with the flag, they have performed their roles, but others are continuing it on. So a communal effort and, again, symbolic of the sacrifices at home and the dangers and trepidation faced by those in the field. It's embodied in this idea that we're trying to get the job done together. And I'll also reflect on that in slightly a different way. Singularity of purpose. You have an image capturing six men who are doing one thing. It is the only thing on their mind. They have a clear focus. They want to get the job done. I think that's, that's quite important in the way you, that you, you look at this image. They are all playing their part and their objective is, we're going to get this done. And implicitly, then we're going to move over, move on to the, the next task that we have, okay? The final one, final point, is a little bit more obvious; is the patriotism associated with the flag and quotes victory. Again, just take into the context, American flag. I've already made some reference in the course about the importance of the American flag to the American population, and how to a certain degree the flag of St. George it doesn't have the same prominence in England or, or even to a certain degree the, the Union Jack as well. But here it is raising something that Americans do respect in the vast, vast majority. Now, end victory. The end victory, again is implied firstly, we don't have the job done, I mentioned that earlier, but secondly, this is day six of 35. So, for the American public it's symbolic of progress. It's some symbolic of perhaps a small triumphant along the way but it is not the final, it is not the final conclusion of the battle. One way or the other I still think we can talk about this is anticipation of victory as well as the patriotic image. So, those are my thoughts around this. I'd like you to go away and examine it and think about, other opinions you've heard around this particular image. And consider yourself, why you think that this is important in American History. [BLANK_AUDIO]
